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	<title>Comments on: Loyalty . . . Right or Wrong</title>
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		<title>By: Scott Hinrichs</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hinrichs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-75</guid>
		<description>David is correct that there are currently only two parties that have any political clout whatsoever.  The people in the CP would argue with David&#039;s last comment, suggesting that as long as people continue to support the two big establishment parties, challengers like the CP will never gain sufficient power to make a difference.

I think it is instructive, however, to realize that the people leaving the GOP (as well as those leaving the Democratic Party) generally do not register with any of the third parties.  This says something that I think we ought not to ignore.  These smaller parties will argue that it says that most of these people just don&#039;t know about the smaller parties.

This is somewhat inaccurate.  People tend to know something about the various parties.  But human psychology is tied up in this matter.  People like to be associated with the winning team or at least with a team that has a chance of winning.  With extremely rare exception, any vote for a third party candidate is a vote against the major party candidate that most closely shares the view of the voter.

But it would also be inaccurate to say that independent voters have no power.  Being unorganized and having an extremely broad range of views on matters, they naturally have less power than those that are politically organized.  But the group of independent voters is now becoming so large that the major parties cannot win national (and some state) elections without appealing to at least some of the independents.  This is very difficult because their views are difficult to strongly classify, so it often amounts to little more than manipulation.

If you want to wield more political power, you&#039;ve got to do it from within one of the major parties.  Leaving a party sends a message, but unless you&#039;re a major public figure it only sends a message as part of a faceless mass of those making the exodus.  And as the current debate within the GOP tells us, it&#039;s anybody&#039;s guess as to what that message actually is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David is correct that there are currently only two parties that have any political clout whatsoever.  The people in the CP would argue with David&#8217;s last comment, suggesting that as long as people continue to support the two big establishment parties, challengers like the CP will never gain sufficient power to make a difference.</p>
<p>I think it is instructive, however, to realize that the people leaving the GOP (as well as those leaving the Democratic Party) generally do not register with any of the third parties.  This says something that I think we ought not to ignore.  These smaller parties will argue that it says that most of these people just don&#8217;t know about the smaller parties.</p>
<p>This is somewhat inaccurate.  People tend to know something about the various parties.  But human psychology is tied up in this matter.  People like to be associated with the winning team or at least with a team that has a chance of winning.  With extremely rare exception, any vote for a third party candidate is a vote against the major party candidate that most closely shares the view of the voter.</p>
<p>But it would also be inaccurate to say that independent voters have no power.  Being unorganized and having an extremely broad range of views on matters, they naturally have less power than those that are politically organized.  But the group of independent voters is now becoming so large that the major parties cannot win national (and some state) elections without appealing to at least some of the independents.  This is very difficult because their views are difficult to strongly classify, so it often amounts to little more than manipulation.</p>
<p>If you want to wield more political power, you&#8217;ve got to do it from within one of the major parties.  Leaving a party sends a message, but unless you&#8217;re a major public figure it only sends a message as part of a faceless mass of those making the exodus.  And as the current debate within the GOP tells us, it&#8217;s anybody&#8217;s guess as to what that message actually is.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-73</guid>
		<description>I looked at the Constitution party and found that there were parts that I was uncomfortable with - just like every party I looked at. I concluded that if I were going to try to make corrections to whatever party I joined I might as well choose a party that was actually electing candidates. If the Constitution part grew to the point that they were getting elected (or if their platform changed so that it was precisely what I believe) I could support that party myself. As it is, I&#039;ll vote for their candidates when the Republicans don&#039;t manage to nominate someone at least as good for the position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I looked at the Constitution party and found that there were parts that I was uncomfortable with &#8211; just like every party I looked at. I concluded that if I were going to try to make corrections to whatever party I joined I might as well choose a party that was actually electing candidates. If the Constitution part grew to the point that they were getting elected (or if their platform changed so that it was precisely what I believe) I could support that party myself. As it is, I&#8217;ll vote for their candidates when the Republicans don&#8217;t manage to nominate someone at least as good for the position.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Staheli</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Staheli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-72</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s like the admittedly imperfect I told my Libertarian friend once: if someone came into your church and started changing the sacraments and the way callings were issued, etc.  would you leave and form another church?  No, because you know that the church you belong to is the right one already.

Although, now I&#039;m thinking I might switch to the Church of the Constitution Party.   ;-)  I&#039;ve been voting for their candidates a lot lately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s like the admittedly imperfect I told my Libertarian friend once: if someone came into your church and started changing the sacraments and the way callings were issued, etc.  would you leave and form another church?  No, because you know that the church you belong to is the right one already.</p>
<p>Although, now I&#8217;m thinking I might switch to the Church of the Constitution Party.   <img src='http://www.politicselevated.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />   I&#8217;ve been voting for their candidates a lot lately.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-71</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s also unfortunate that in the one area where Republicans are leading out into trouble the Democrats have no backbone to stand up and say that this is wrong and they won&#039;t support it.

I also think that it&#039;s ironic that at the time when many Republican as becoming independent I went from independent to Republican for the very same reasons - I entered the party because I wanted to help make course corrections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also unfortunate that in the one area where Republicans are leading out into trouble the Democrats have no backbone to stand up and say that this is wrong and they won&#8217;t support it.</p>
<p>I also think that it&#8217;s ironic that at the time when many Republican as becoming independent I went from independent to Republican for the very same reasons &#8211; I entered the party because I wanted to help make course corrections.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Staheli</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Staheli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-65</guid>
		<description>In the article you link to, Thomas Sowell says:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
In a country with more conservatives than liberals, it is puzzling-- in fact, amazing-- that we have the furthest left President of the United States in history, as well as the furthest left Speaker of the House of Representatives.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

We are in this predicament due to the fact that we have the furthest left Republican party in history.  It annoys me to no end that, in general, the Republicans try so hard to keep up with the Democratic Joneses in such areas as Climate Change, Health Care, budget-busting social programs, and Education.  Why would anyone want to be a Republican when nearly all they have are me-too principles?  That is why I think, as Scott points out, so many Republicans are becoming independents.

The one area that the Republicans unfortunately seem to lead out on is one that causes them a great deal of grief with a growing group of thinking Americans--our inane imperialistic foreign policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the article you link to, Thomas Sowell says:</p>
<blockquote><p>
In a country with more conservatives than liberals, it is puzzling&#8211; in fact, amazing&#8211; that we have the furthest left President of the United States in history, as well as the furthest left Speaker of the House of Representatives.</p></blockquote>
<p>We are in this predicament due to the fact that we have the furthest left Republican party in history.  It annoys me to no end that, in general, the Republicans try so hard to keep up with the Democratic Joneses in such areas as Climate Change, Health Care, budget-busting social programs, and Education.  Why would anyone want to be a Republican when nearly all they have are me-too principles?  That is why I think, as Scott points out, so many Republicans are becoming independents.</p>
<p>The one area that the Republicans unfortunately seem to lead out on is one that causes them a great deal of grief with a growing group of thinking Americans&#8211;our inane imperialistic foreign policy.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 01:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-64</guid>
		<description>I agree with your statement that &quot;before the party can think about steadfastness to principle, it had better figure out what principles it actually stands for.&quot;

My argument here is that although many social and fiscal conservatives feel jaded this might be a good opportunity while the party is virtually rudderless to &quot;stick their oar in&quot; and try to ensure that the party does not find its new course without their help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your statement that &#8220;before the party can think about steadfastness to principle, it had better figure out what principles it actually stands for.&#8221;</p>
<p>My argument here is that although many social and fiscal conservatives feel jaded this might be a good opportunity while the party is virtually rudderless to &#8220;stick their oar in&#8221; and try to ensure that the party does not find its new course without their help.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Hinrichs</title>
		<link>http://www.politicselevated.com/2009/07/loyalty-right-or-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hinrichs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.politicselevated.com/?p=218#comment-63</guid>
		<description>Polling on party affiliation is somewhat tricky.  Some fluctuations are due to broader factors that are beyond the control of the political class and a certain percentage is due to extreme fickleness, which can quickly shift.

There is no question that the GOP&#039;s ranks have dwindled since its recent hay day.  This is not simply due to attrition (old Republicans dying), so it is useful to explore who is leaving.  It is also useful to understand that few people leaving the GOP are becoming Democrats.  They&#039;re becoming independents.

So, who is leaving?  Some of the moderates in the political class have left because they can see the writing on the wall and they see better opportunities outside of the party.  (Fair weather Republicans mostly shifting to the Democratic Party.)

Younger evangelicals are leaving because the party no longer reflects their ideals.  Many are comfortable with socialistic environmental and social programs, seeing these as a way to fulfill the Christian mandate to help others.  As a group they tend to take a much more relaxed approach to lifestyle issues than their parents&#039; generation.  Many of these will change their tunes somewhat as they hit middle age and enjoy the heavy taxes, inflation, and decreased opportunity that accompany socialistic policies.

And masses of both fiscal and social conservatives have left the party recently.  They feel that they get no respect in the GOP.  The party sometimes talks their talk but never actally walks their walk.  They are snubbed when it comes to working with the party power brokers, who treat them like the party&#039;s crazy aunt in the attic.  They don&#039;t see how continuing to work in the party is going get them where they want to go any more than not working in the party.  They tried it for a long time.  They thought they had some successes, but these turned out to be ephemeral.  They&#039;re jaded.  They feel used.

The party has already worked to appeal to a broader base, but it has instead alienated much of its traditional base to the point that they no longer see themselves as Republicans.

Finally, the GOP is not attracting new voters.  There is no getting around the fact that once GWB was effectively branded as incompetent, the party&#039;s brand went south.  People will flock to a brand that communicates competence, even if they don&#039;t fully agree with its policies.  It takes time to rebuild a brand.  Marketing people know the basic formula and it includes steadfastness to principle and a lot of very hard work.

Before the party can think about steadfastness to principle, it had better figure out what principles it actually stands for.  Until that happens it will continue to appear hapless and ineffective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Polling on party affiliation is somewhat tricky.  Some fluctuations are due to broader factors that are beyond the control of the political class and a certain percentage is due to extreme fickleness, which can quickly shift.</p>
<p>There is no question that the GOP&#8217;s ranks have dwindled since its recent hay day.  This is not simply due to attrition (old Republicans dying), so it is useful to explore who is leaving.  It is also useful to understand that few people leaving the GOP are becoming Democrats.  They&#8217;re becoming independents.</p>
<p>So, who is leaving?  Some of the moderates in the political class have left because they can see the writing on the wall and they see better opportunities outside of the party.  (Fair weather Republicans mostly shifting to the Democratic Party.)</p>
<p>Younger evangelicals are leaving because the party no longer reflects their ideals.  Many are comfortable with socialistic environmental and social programs, seeing these as a way to fulfill the Christian mandate to help others.  As a group they tend to take a much more relaxed approach to lifestyle issues than their parents&#8217; generation.  Many of these will change their tunes somewhat as they hit middle age and enjoy the heavy taxes, inflation, and decreased opportunity that accompany socialistic policies.</p>
<p>And masses of both fiscal and social conservatives have left the party recently.  They feel that they get no respect in the GOP.  The party sometimes talks their talk but never actally walks their walk.  They are snubbed when it comes to working with the party power brokers, who treat them like the party&#8217;s crazy aunt in the attic.  They don&#8217;t see how continuing to work in the party is going get them where they want to go any more than not working in the party.  They tried it for a long time.  They thought they had some successes, but these turned out to be ephemeral.  They&#8217;re jaded.  They feel used.</p>
<p>The party has already worked to appeal to a broader base, but it has instead alienated much of its traditional base to the point that they no longer see themselves as Republicans.</p>
<p>Finally, the GOP is not attracting new voters.  There is no getting around the fact that once GWB was effectively branded as incompetent, the party&#8217;s brand went south.  People will flock to a brand that communicates competence, even if they don&#8217;t fully agree with its policies.  It takes time to rebuild a brand.  Marketing people know the basic formula and it includes steadfastness to principle and a lot of very hard work.</p>
<p>Before the party can think about steadfastness to principle, it had better figure out what principles it actually stands for.  Until that happens it will continue to appear hapless and ineffective.</p>
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